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Defining Feminism
Topic Started: Mar 10 2014, 03:43 AM (1,738 Views)
Doggo Champion 2k17 Mar 10 2014, 03:43 AM Post #1
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So I got into a short debate today on Tumblr with a radical feminist. Yeah... I know.

It ended up bringing me to this question: how should feminism be defined? The main goal of feminism in the mid 1900's was to gain equality for women, but today we define it as equality for all genders. In my opinion, radical feminists like the one I encountered on Tumblr today are the reason that feminists get such a bad rep and why many men and women refuse to label themselves as feminists. They don't understand feminism because of man-hating, "females are superior" types that lurk on places like Tumblr and Youtube.

What is your own stance on feminism? Is it pretty much obsolete now? (I've encountered opinions like that as well.) Some people don't even believe in the patriarchy. I find that a bit hard to wrap my mind around, but who knows, maybe someone could convince me with a good enough argument.
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+ Pelador Mar 10 2014, 04:16 AM Post #2
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Crazy Awesome Legend

 I think that that the main objective of feminism should be equality and fairness.

Since women still aren't treated with the same rights that they should be then there is still very much a place for feminism. That being said I think the need for any kind of radicalism, at least in the western world is not required. A more subtle and intelligent approach can do a much better job.



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* Ketchup Revenge Mar 10 2014, 07:24 AM Post #3
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"

 Thing about the "females are superior" types of feminists is that they're acting toward men in the exact same manner on how they don't want to be treated as women.

I'm all for equal treatment of both genders, but the social standards of both genders are far from equal.

For example, how are topless women not considered nudity? There are several men who have tried to convince me that it's not, and they're lying completely.
If I can't walk down Main Street in my town topless without the Police taking notice, then that's a definition of nudity as far as my understanding goes.
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* Light Mar 10 2014, 02:02 PM Post #4
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Yo

 I have a friend who got pretty upset because I refused to brand myself a feminist. She argued that I believed in all the "core" ideals etc and thus I had no reason not to label myself a feminist. I think about 5 seconds passed before she pointed out if you're not a feminist, you're sexist.

It's impossible to police such a Universal movement, there are plenty of conflicting ideals and viewpoints within and plenty of these are championed by people with strong beliefs. You point out that radical feminists taint the public image of feminism but for all their Dworkin quoting propaganda they're still part of the movement.

Homophobia, Transphobia, Racism, sexism (towards other women) are all evident within the feminism movement. This coupled with a tendency of it's followers to only read from a certain part of the spectrum make it a less interesting proposition for me, this is true of virtually everything though, it's hard to motivate yourself to read things that don't reinforce your own views. Any movement that demands you take it's name is probably a movement that while I might adhere to some of it's teachings/philosophies due to a shared belief set, isn't one I'll become a card carrying member of.

These are just my negatives, on the whole I think it's vital that we continue to strive for equality between the 2 primary genders, eventually we'll hit a point where there is true equality between all genders, sexual orientations, races etc. Or probably not, but it's a worthy goal.


Edit:
As for the Patriarchy.
Just to give this a frame, the Conservatives are a political party in Britain.
The Tory (Conservative) election manifesto was written by 6 gentleman,
Privately educated (all but one educated at Eton), White, Male, Southern, rich, straight.

It's not always the bogeyman that some people make it out to be, but it's a problem.


Edited by Light, Mar 10 2014, 02:07 PM.
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Master Gohan Mar 11 2014, 12:27 PM Post #5
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Ketchupis Ultionis
Mar 10 2014, 07:24 AM
Thing about the "females are superior" types of feminists is that they're acting toward men in the exact same manner on how they don't want to be treated as women.

I'm all for equal treatment of both genders, but the social standards of both genders are far from equal.

For example, how are topless women not considered nudity? There are several men who have tried to convince me that it's not, and they're lying completely.
If I can't walk down Main Street in my town topless without the Police taking notice, then that's a definition of nudity as far as my understanding goes.
Well, when you ask a man is being topless nudity and if it should be allowed in public, that's not a smart question to ask. Every man is going to be like "Oh yeah, its not nudity, nahhh, just go out there and walk topless!"
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SaiyanHajime Mar 11 2014, 03:25 PM Post #6
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 It's a difficult one isn't it, for so many different reasons.

Individuals will never be treated equally. It's impossible. That doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for it, but it's worth pointing out. I'm me because I'm not equal to anyone else, that's kind of the point of being me. I have advantages and disadvantages pitted against each and every person on the planet.
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* Yu Narukami Mar 11 2014, 04:05 PM Post #7
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Izanagi!

 Eh, I'm not really a 'feminist' in any sense. More of a 'humanist', or 'equalist', if you want to put names to beliefs. Why call it 'feminism' if it's dealing with the issues that concern all genders or sexes? I'm of the opinion that we should make true equality our goal and so, while it isn't attainable, we may better ourselves and the lives of everybody around us in trying to accomplish it.
Edited by Yu Narukami, Mar 11 2014, 04:07 PM.
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lunar2 Mar 11 2014, 06:27 PM Post #8
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Ketchupis Ultionis
Mar 10 2014, 07:24 AM
Thing about the "females are superior" types of feminists is that they're acting toward men in the exact same manner on how they don't want to be treated as women.

I'm all for equal treatment of both genders, but the social standards of both genders are far from equal.

For example, how are topless women not considered nudity? There are several men who have tried to convince me that it's not, and they're lying completely.
If I can't walk down Main Street in my town topless without the Police taking notice, then that's a definition of nudity as far as my understanding goes.
idk where you're from but in most of the US women are allowed to go topless in public. the old laws preventing it are still on the books, but they've been struck down in courts enough times that they are no longer enforced.

also, OFG, what are you doing on tumblr? you do know the only things on there are porn and so called "social justice warriors". you know, the idiots who think every white rapper is racist because they "appropriated" black culture. oh, and you can't criticize a religion unless you are a practicing member of it, or you're being xphobic. and people who convert to a religion have to listen to people born into it, because they are "uninvited guests". and you can't be racist against whites, sexist against men, etc., because of X privilege negating any possibility of ism. for example blackface is racist (no arguments there), but whiteface isn't.
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the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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* Ketchup Revenge Mar 11 2014, 06:56 PM Post #9
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"
Master Gohan
Mar 11 2014, 12:27 PM
Ketchupis Ultionis
Mar 10 2014, 07:24 AM
Thing about the "females are superior" types of feminists is that they're acting toward men in the exact same manner on how they don't want to be treated as women.

I'm all for equal treatment of both genders, but the social standards of both genders are far from equal.

For example, how are topless women not considered nudity? There are several men who have tried to convince me that it's not, and they're lying completely.
If I can't walk down Main Street in my town topless without the Police taking notice, then that's a definition of nudity as far as my understanding goes.
Well, when you ask a man is being topless nudity and if it should be allowed in public, that's not a smart question to ask. Every man is going to be like "Oh yeah, its not nudity, nahhh, just go out there and walk topless!"
If men wanted to walk around with their balls hanging out, I can't say that a whole lot of women would object either.
Edited by Ketchup Revenge, Mar 11 2014, 06:59 PM.
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SaiyanHajime Mar 11 2014, 07:17 PM Post #10
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 Nudity is a cultural thing. There are parts of the world where showing an ankle is considered nudity, and other places where there is no such thing as nudity.

Boobs are an odd one. Their display is acceptable in certain public situations, such as beaches, in Europe. Whilst in the US, I don't think I've ever seen a woman topless in public?

But the USA is prude in general. I can't remember how or when I found this out, but apparently seeing your parents naked is like the biggest of big deals in the US. It's just not in the UK, and I'm sure much of Europe.

Though for some reason GIGANTIC gaps between and under public toilet stalls in the USA is so acceptable it's the norm. It's horrifying for Brit to encounter this. There was one toilet I went to in the US where you could see people's heads over the top and half way up their shins underneath I walked straight back out like nope.

TLDR: Cultures are different yo.
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Doggo Champion 2k17 Mar 12 2014, 02:03 AM Post #11
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lunar2
Mar 11 2014, 06:27 PM
Ketchupis Ultionis
Mar 10 2014, 07:24 AM
Thing about the "females are superior" types of feminists is that they're acting toward men in the exact same manner on how they don't want to be treated as women.

I'm all for equal treatment of both genders, but the social standards of both genders are far from equal.

For example, how are topless women not considered nudity? There are several men who have tried to convince me that it's not, and they're lying completely.
If I can't walk down Main Street in my town topless without the Police taking notice, then that's a definition of nudity as far as my understanding goes.
idk where you're from but in most of the US women are allowed to go topless in public. the old laws preventing it are still on the books, but they've been struck down in courts enough times that they are no longer enforced.

also, OFG, what are you doing on tumblr? you do know the only things on there are porn and so called "social justice warriors". you know, the idiots who think every white rapper is racist because they "appropriated" black culture. oh, and you can't criticize a religion unless you are a practicing member of it, or you're being xphobic. and people who convert to a religion have to listen to people born into it, because they are "uninvited guests". and you can't be racist against whites, sexist against men, etc., because of X privilege negating any possibility of ism. for example blackface is racist (no arguments there), but whiteface isn't.
Yeah, Tumblr's nice for the anime/manga posts and is a good place to vent, but the immaturity on that site really disgusts me at times. I was arguing with this radical feminist, and then I had an "anti-feminist" trying to tell me that I was arguing against myself because since I believed a patriarchy existed it meant I was a radical feminist. Circles of nonsense.

:|
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Tonneh Mar 17 2014, 08:57 AM Post #12
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 Hi all;

Relatively new here, I'm really interested in deep discussions, this forum is a really good one to take a step back and really think about things.

Having said that I think that feminism is still alive and kicking. I find myself sometimes getting annoyed at the radicals because it seems like they want superiority not just to be equal which defeats the purpose of fairness. I do believe that the genders are not equal and that men are favoured in high power positions more often than not regardless of experience or qualifications. I support that we need equality but is there a way we can come up with a solution for this? Too many different viewpoints to get to a common goal.

To clarify as well; I don't know much about feminism or feminists or the reasons for being so. I'm just going what I've observed around the workplace / society / life.
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Meowth Mar 21 2014, 11:13 PM Post #13
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=._.=

 Labels for social groups only cause problems, every group will have it's radicals and if you label yourself under that group, you will be judged by what the radicals do, regardless of the core. I am a strong believer in equality, not just in gender, but everything from race to what comic books you like, no one should be discriminated against because of who they are or what they like.

The only people who doesn't deserve equality is those who seek to remove rights from others, these people are often called criminals or politicians.
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Rogafufuken Mar 22 2014, 11:32 PM Post #14
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 Those types of feminists annoy me, and not just because I'm a man. It's mainly because the point should be for everyone to be equal, not have one gender, race, or sexual orientation group (Yeah I know the wording is awkward) be superior. I'm totally ok with other feminists, and I share a lot of their views.
Edited by Rogafufuken, Mar 22 2014, 11:34 PM.
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Rogafufuken Mar 22 2014, 11:40 PM Post #15
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lunar2
Mar 11 2014, 06:27 PM
also, OFG, what are you doing on tumblr? you do know the only things on there are porn and so called "social justice warriors". you know, the idiots who think every white rapper is racist because they "appropriated" black culture. oh, and you can't criticize a religion unless you are a practicing member of it, or you're being xphobic. and people who convert to a religion have to listen to people born into it, because they are "uninvited guests". and you can't be racist against whites, sexist against men, etc., because of X privilege negating any possibility of ism. for example blackface is racist (no arguments there), but whiteface isn't.
I'm on tumblr and I can tell you, that if you're following the right people, who mainly only post stuff about fandoms, quirks in their daily lives etc., you won't encounter any of that stuff.

Edit: I just realized I double posted. Sorry! :(
Edited by Rogafufuken, Mar 22 2014, 11:41 PM.
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